Showing posts with label 1:87 Arab-Israeli. Show all posts
Showing posts with label 1:87 Arab-Israeli. Show all posts

Sunday, 16 November 2025

Weekend modelling

Due to work, weather and mood, weekend progress has been slow. Still working on some 20mm 2pdr portees being scratch-built from some Matchbox LRDG trucks = wrong kind of Chevrolet but close enough for me. I bought some assorted bits from eBay a while back - enough for 2 jeeps and 4 trucks (almost) with a few bits missing from one model. The seller had separated them from the sprue so I had to sort all the small parts into bags and try to work out what went where from the instructions = which weren't clear themselves, All the MGs had been taken but if I do one or two as LRDG I have metal weapons I can use.

This week, saw me revisit the Arab-Israeli war with some additions for the Jordanians.

From various sources, the US supplied Jordan with M47, M48 and M48A1 "Pattons". The M47s ended up supporting the infantry brigades while the M48s ended up in the two armoured brigades. While they received M48A1, I have never seen much photographic evidence. An internet search so far has only thrown up a M48A1 returned to the US from Jordan. While trawling eBay, I found an Israeli book on 1967 which I believe is a history of the Barak brigade; one of the photos shows what maybe an M48A1 in Jordanian camo - I have ordered said book as many of the photos were new to me.

So, having been contemplating unit strengths, I realised that while I have been building Israeli, Egyptian and Syrian armies on a scale of 1:30 for tanks, I had not applied this to the Jordanians. Each armoured brigade had two tank battalions and HQ with a total of 88-90 tanks. Each was therefore due an extra model.

Unusually, the Gods smiled on me and without much effort I was able to locate models and parts needed. I even had enough bits and oil drums to construct the auxiliary fuel tank used to increase range. After a bit of work, with only minimal swearing for the fiddly tasks, two new models have left the factory floor.




I have decided they will probably be command tanks for the brigade with  staff stand in M113 and Landrover.


And to any bloggers out there who may have noticed an absence of comments from me, this is due to Google preventing me from commenting using my tablet. In trying to sign in I somehow created an unwanted gmail account (or rather Google unhelpfully did) which I cannot access and so cannot sign in on the tablet, only the laptop. It means posts and comments on lots of blogs will be less frequent - some blogs I can comment as anonymous, which allow you to enter your name, but others (presumably due to permissions for comments) which don't allow any way to comment. The joys of technology......

Sunday, 10 March 2024

"I looked over Jordan and what did I see.......Sweet Chariot."

As related in previous blog posts I have slowly been working on the Jordanian army of 1967. This post is by way of a progress report as to where I'm up to.

M48

The M48s had the jetisonable fuel tanks tweaked so they no longer pointed downwards. Here's the real thing:


I was helped by some modelling sites which helpfully show details the above site didn't. Alas the folding "shield" has a couple of different patterns; I chose one from a blueprint. Unfortunately the pictures of Jordanian M48s are unclear, however I suspect they were solid rather than with a "V" cut out. Anyway, here' my M48s showing various stages and just awaiting final stowage.






I then turned to the M47s



Getting the turret brackets to stick involved lots of super glue and swearing - as Eric suggested on the VWC a better name for a blog! Once fixed everything got some liquid Green Stuff, including the M48s.


Then I turned to the last tank used by Jordan; the Centurion. Jordan used Mk3 and Mk5 with the original British gun. In an attempt to differentiate from the IDF Sho't I made them all Mk3 with 20pdr . Progress from disassembly to finish.





 Finally, thwarted in attempts to purchase resin Trident M52 SPH, I have added bits to my bodge jobs.




 Most of above just need a bit of extra stowage (covers a multitude of sins!) and in some cases MGs (M47 and Centurion have cradle / bracket M48s are fitted.

To do - M113s, M42 Dusters, Long Toms and tractors, 25 pdrs and infantry. I also have a \Hunter and a "what-if" Widow Maker in 1:100

Sunday, 18 February 2024

Minor gains...

Carrying on the "East (Midlands) Front" metaphor, the front has advanced a very short distance....

Carrying on with the Jordanians, the M47s received turret brackets from the wire found in telephone / Ethernet cables; very thin copper wire covered in plastic insulation. I used the same on the M48s having obtained some from an old internet cable.

The wire however didn't want to stay in place / stick! The M47 turret is an odd shape and the brackets are in pairs, but each side is different / asymmetric. My old superglue had gone thick which I thought might actually help; a couple of brackets kept pinging off. Even the normally reliable Revell Contacta Liquid Special was of no use. Perhaps I should have gone for quick dry epoxy. No matter, they were glued again with thick super glue and when set got some thinner super glue which seems to have worked. I will probably add some Green Stuff stowage.

Two models had lost the bow MGs; replacements were fashioned from wire with a little foil wrapped around. There's not a lot more to do with the M47s; turret MGs, jerrycans and some tarpaulins seem the extent of additions to Jordanian models.

As mentioned, I attempted to obtain some M52 SPH from Germany; Trident made a resin 1:87 version. Unfortunately, despite allowing me to add to the basket, they were unavailable. I found one in the USA, but postage was prohibitively expensive.

I have therefore accepted I will have to put up with my bodged version despite its faults. I added some stowage and will add further details.

Sunday, 10 September 2023

Injuns and IDF (or Hurons and Halftracks)

Unseasonably warm weather in the UK meant painting was out of the question; a wet palette might have coped but I find it requires a slightly different technique as the paint becomes thinner.

I therefore spent the weekend between two projects. Firstly some Rafm Native Americans / First Nations warriors were cleaned up with some requiring the addition of weapons.

Next the IDF M3 halftracks for the 35th Para Brigade attached to Ugda Tal.



Sunday, 30 July 2023

Slow but steady progress..

Considered tackling the lead rot problem as the brass, steel and nylon brush set turned up, but the will was lacking.

Aimed to tackle the IDF para brigade mounted in halftracks, but got side tracked if you'll forgive the pun, into finishing some bits on the SP 120mm mortar halftracks. Only got as far as cleaning the paratrooper figures, but ran out of time to work on their transport. 





Monday, 24 July 2023

IDF Mechanised Infantry

Abandoning corrective action on the lead rot, I turned instead to my 1:87 Arab-Israeli project turning to M3 half-tracks and IDF Mechanised Infantry. 

In 1967, the IDF had 5x armoured brigades (with 1 mechanised battalion each) and 4x Mechanised brigades (with 2 mechanised battalions each) giving a total of 13 battalions. In Megablitz terms 13 models and 26 infantry (apart from any crew figures).

I had already built 7 M3s and 6 infantry, adding another M3 recently. So while listening to Israeli folk music (!) I added another 3 xM3 and 20 infantry. Progress was marred by realising the rear folding shelves had been glued too far down. I did consider leaving them, but knew it would bug me so I had to alter them! The infantry head swaps were hard work, the metal of the figures being particularly hard, even when drilling with a mini-drill. Fortunately, Jerusalem of Gold, Rachel and some other songs got me through it!






https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=22b0UjPiNNY




Sunday, 26 February 2023

More IDF

More progress on the Israeli Defence Force.

First up some conversions for Ugdah (Division) commanders. From L to R we have unnamed commander for Jerusalem front, Elad Peled, Avriham Yaffe, Israel Tal, Arik Sharon.


The M50 and M51 Sherman fleet eventually got MGs added to turrets.


Finally sorted out crews (not yet added) and did a little more on the M7 Priest SPGs.



Saturday, 18 February 2023

Weekend workbench

Last weekend's work saw me approach this weekend with more enthusiasm.

Channelling Jesse from the "Fast Show"  - "this week I have been mostly tackling IDF"

The Panhard has had a few minor fine details added and a commander figure located.

I have sorted out the M3 halftracks and M7 Priest SPGs (another lurks off table) and made a start on the Mechanised Infantry. These are Combat Miniatures by Stonewall in their Yom Kippur range who have had their heads replaced with Force 20 US heads. The figures are a "small" 20mm who don't look too out of place next to 1:87 vehicles. My only issue is the heads; the helmet looks more like the British Para version used by the IDF or the later Kevlar one used in Lebanon in the 1980s.

So they have had the original removed and replaced with something more suitable for 1967 and 1973  - WW2 US or the post-war French steel helmet. Of course this means that not only is it necessary to convert almost every vehicle the Israelis used, but also all the figures! Truly a labour of love or utter madness......



Sunday, 12 February 2023

Fighting the lethargy - a Panhard AML-90

The last couple of weekends have disappeared in a blur without achieving anything of note. A combination of very busy working weeks and very dull weather has seen me disinclined to start or unable to summon any enthusiasm to do much of anything.

I'm glad to see it's not just me the unremitting grey skys have effected, with other bloggers reporting a lack of motivation. This time of year is well known to be depressing.

Anyway, belatedly I made a start on something. In the "work in progress" box ( a grand name for half-finished items) I came across another Israeli vehicle which had been started but never finished. I seem to recall being unhappy with the wheels and how it sat. Neither seemed to be quite right. I had dug out some replacements and had a go at fixing it, but for some reason had left it all in the box with various bits ready to be attached.

Israeli Panhard AML-90 armoured car



The IDF fielded 14 (according to most sources) of these armoured cars on the Jordanian Front. They served in the "Duhifat" reconnaissance company, part of 55th Parachute Brigade. They are sometimes captioned as 41st Recon, but this appears to have been the designation of the organic recon company of the Harrel Mechanised Brigade.

While it may seem odd to have armoured cars crewed by Paras, if some internet sources are to be believed perhaps not. A couple state that the Israelis bought 29 AML-90s. One goes on to claim they were impressed with the mobility and powerful gun and intended to use them in an air transportable role, but that they discovered belatedly that they were too heavy for the Super-Frelon helicopters they had also purchased.

Whatever the intent, the decision was made to use them on the Jordanian front, presumably where wheeled vehicles were more suited. They served in 1967 and for a few years after but after suffering losses in cross- border firefights to anti-tank guns, they were removed from service.

They have been used by many armies across the world, notably in the Falklands by  Argentina and the South African army as the Eland, built under licence. One is in Bovington Tank Museum and Israel has a couple of examples in museums, which helpfully are featured in "walkarounds" on the internet.

It's a small vehicle, and consequently a small model in 1:87. The model is something of a Frankenstein's creature: the body is a Roskopf EBR -75 (1:90 to 1:100) chopped in half and shortened before being joined together. The turret is from CMSC - they made a speculative IDF M113 with a Commando armoured car turret which is very close to the AML version. Wheels IIRC from a Saladin. The rest is various bits from the spares box and plastic card.

Most had been made, but the wheels needed some work to sit correctly and the detailed walkaround photos showed the front needed some work (the ever useful Roco dragon' s teeth being a perfect shape). Several hours of fettling and swearing and copious amounts of superglue later, we have a dinky little armoured car. Noticed a couple of bits need adding to the turret, but after the trauma of getting the hatch to stay open and fingers covered in superglue, I'd had enough!

Sunday, 22 January 2023

Soviet artillery tractors

This weekend could not get motivated to paint and inspired by thoughts of Megablitz fancied doing something with the Arab-Israeli stuff but found actually doing something virtually impossible.

On the premise of it's better to do something however small, I ended up doing a couple of small repairs and then moved on to assembling some bits which were part done. In the end it turned into work on a pair each of AT-L and AT-T artillery tractors.

They are more "vismod" bodges than accurate scale models but they will do the job.



Sunday, 4 December 2022

Egyptian experiments

This weekend sees an attempt to make a start on the Egyptian armour for 1967.

I've never been entirely happy with the Roco Minitanks models; the T-54 /55 is OK but needs some detailing added, but the JS-3 and T-34/85 were never "quite right". All are some of the earlier models in the Roco line and are quite crude.

The JS-3 was first; it comes with an extremely weedy gun barrel, the turret is too small and sits too far back and the JS-3M supplied to Egypt had sand shields. I corrected some of the more obvious problems and added detail, but it still didn't look right. Adding some height and width to the turret has helped. It's still not perfect and I may try adding a bit more Miliput to the turret. There's a limit to how much it can be improved and some would say "why bother?" My response is that this project is not about buying something off the shelf; it's as much about satisfying my "inner modeller" to see what I can accomplish. I've already surprised myself with what I've produced from limited means to create something unique.

JS-3M


As indicated, I was conscious the T-34/85 was "off" but couldn't quite see why or how. I put it down to the crude model, but wasn't entirely happy. I realised the problem was the turret was too far back. The same model is used for the 76mm T-34 with a different turret. While the 85mm turret is a bit too angular, the position is too far back due to the hole for the turret pin being central. Roco used a common chassis with alternative turret in many of their earlier models (T-54 /T-44, M-60). Here the issue is compounded by the bottom circular part of the turret being moulded to the chassis, not the turret.

Ideally, the turret "pin" needs to be moved backwards. This would create a weakness and would require a plastic card roof inside the turret, as the ideal position interferes with the turret hatch; there is nowhere to secure the pin to on the original turret. The alternative is to drill a new hole. Unfortunately, I see now why Roco didn't do this as they did on other models such as the T-54. Because the hole is no longer central, when the turret turns it does not match the circular turret bottom on the chassis making everything off centre. Moving the pin would avoid this. Using a new hole means the turret is fine when in the forward position. I've gone with drilling new holes at present.

T-34/85


The current fleet with T-54 and Egyptian Sherman with AMX-13 turret lurking in the background. I need to tackle the T-54 / 55 and produce a Centurion. Yes the Egyptians had around 30 Mk 1 to 3 Centurions deployed in Sinai which were captured by the Israelis without firing a shot.



Tuesday, 15 November 2022

Musings on Arab-Israeli project

Progress has concentrated on the Soldier King project, with work on flags for Estavia (still need work), but I've also been musing on my Arab-Israeli stuff.

A post on Tim Gow's blog prompted some of the thinking:

http://megablitzandmore.blogspot.com/2022/11/sinai-1967-megablitz-game-revisited.html

My armies are being built for Megablitz and Tim's orbats that he published on his blog were part of the inspiration. Tim has focussed on Sinai for 1967, where the main fighting occurred, although I've researched the Jordanian and Syrian fronts in addition to cover the whole Six Days War.

My obsession with the various Arab -Israeli wars goes back much further. My first attempt was in 1/285th; living in Northumberland I naturally gravitated to GHQ being sold at the time by New Hope Design then in Rothbury.

My research was minimal; Bruce Quarrie's guide and a Born in Battle magazine identified the main tanks used, so I ordered a selection of what I thought were Israeli vehicles from a paper list without pictures. The Shermans were OK, but the Centurions were probably the later version. I had also ordered "Pattons"; these turned out to be M47 rather than the M48 I was expecting.

Peter Gilder had just written a painting guide published in Military Modelling. His advice was to undercoat black and drybrush. Filled with enthusiasm, I bought a large can of black car primer from a car parts shop in Alnwick. Disaster! Whether it was old stock or I managed to buy the only faulty can in the shop, whatever the cause it failed to spray and the nozzle kept clogging! Perhaps it was an omen.....

I ended up undercoating by hand and drybrushed them grey; they looked.......OK. Enthusiasm quashed, I dug them out a few years later and played a game. Ended up passing them to a friend. I had encountered one of the downfalls of micro armour for me; the tendency to try and field 1:1 forces which ended up with wall to wall tanks, instead of  using the scale to fight on smaller tables for example.

Many years later, played some more Arab-Israeli games with GHQ 1:285 again, this time using Modern Spearhead. Playing out a scenario based on a historical encounter, sadly revealed the limitations of the rules; no benefits for troop quality and no restrictions on Soviet armour firing from higher ground (in reality unable to depress their guns), no airpower for the Israelis ( umpire decided not to use).

My interest lay dormant until it resurfaced many years later. This was long before Battlefront brought out their 15mm ranges. I toyed with micro, but past experience had put me off. Then musing one day, I realised Roco Minitanks had many of the vehicles, being from the 1960s and having WW2 surplus as used by many European armies. M48s, Sherman, M3 halftrack, Centurion (rare) were all available or already in my stash (only 4 Centurions at that point). For the Arabs, T34/85, T54/55, JS3 were also available (if crude).

The downside was the fact that many needed converting. I remembered one of the earliest inspirations; an article in Military Modelling from around 1977 converting smaller scale vehicles to Arab-Israeli, mostly Airfix, but with Roco  mentioned in the list of available vehicles.

Aircraft could be sourced from Heller and Tamiya  in 1:100, more crude 1960s models which somehow seemed to fit. Most of the French types could be sourced.

But what rules to use? I had rejected the idea of rules requiring multiple models (due to the need to convert most) for company or platoon level. Martin Rapier had some very high level (stand = brigade) but were a bit too abstract. Then inspiration struck. What about Megablitz with 1 stand = 1 battalion with the added attraction of the ethos of bodging vehicles to look roughly like what they are supposed to? 

Once started, it's taken on a life of its own as the pictures of conversions and modelling on this blog will attest. Tim's post has inspired me to get on with finishing it!

Monday, 29 August 2022

Bank holiday bodging

Taking advantage of the Bank holiday weekend to finish the last of the Israeli armour in use in 1967. M1 Sherman with 76mm and HVSS suspension. The IDF could not even resist making minor adaptations to these, although less drastic than with the remainder of the Sherman fleet.

They were used by two of the GASHAP territorial battalions (the other two had AMX-13) and the tank company of the Jerusalem brigade. This was technically an extra company of the 182 battalion (Central front regional GASHAP), sometimes numbered 29. By the terms of the 1948/49 armistice, the Israelis were prevented from having any armour in the city of Jerusalem, but the canny Israelis got around this by secretly stationing around 5 tanks of the Jerusalem brigade in the outskirts with the remaining 13 a bit further out.

The M1s of both units saw a lot of action in the battle for Jerusalem in 1967. If the Jordanians had succeeded in supporting their infantry with their armoured brigades, the M1s would have had to face off against M48 Pattons. As it was, they did not have it all their own way, one M1 ended up falling off an embankment and ending upside down in a gulley when encountering fierce resistance from the city walls (including bazooka fire). As the only armour available, they provided the Israeli paras with crucial support and one blew in the gates of the city in the final assault.

The models are 2x Boley Sherman and a similar model from another US company (name forgotten) heavily converted with plastic card, Milliput and Green Stuff, bits from the spares box and some very nice turned brass muzzles nominally 1:76th but not out of place on the 1:87 models. A M51 Sherman lurks in the background (needed to compare parts).



Sunday, 21 August 2022

Let there be light!

More progress on mostly IDF armour for the Six Day War.

Added some scratchbuilt French Xenon searchlights to selected vehicles. Most commonly photographed on M50 and M51 Shermans, then AMX-13s with correspondingly few photos of them mounted on Centurions and M48s. This frequency is reflected in the models.



Also added some more details to the Egyptian Sherman with AMX-13 turret and a smaller and cruder AMX-13 from a French toy mounted on a Roskopf chassis of a Bundeswehr Rakette. The latter is destined for the Syrians. Granovsky identifies they had around 25 on the Golan and there is a well known picture of one either knocked out or abandoned which is frequently misidentified as Israeli. It is being inspected by Israelis and passed by Shermans (one of which has broken down or been hit). A close up of the photo just reveals Arab writing on the turret, common on Syrian vehicles in the Six Day War.


A possible sub-title is "for the want of a shoe". Adding some searchlights and kit, I discovered some of the distinctive Israeli coiled netting seen on vehicles which I had made from leftover Milliput and Green Stuff. As I had just made some for the AMX-13s, these initially appeared to be surplus to requirements.

I realised however, that I had still to make 3x 76mm Super Sherman and that a couple of the Centurions were missing one each which was the exact number of extras I had.

I therefore started digging out the bits needed. I found the Sherman and M40SPGs (for HVSS tracks) and was overjoyed to find I had three muzzle breaks (thought only had two). Spent a long time looking for suitable gun barrels and mantlets, before settling on surplus Achilles 76mm which I realised could have the mantlet cut and filed down to shape. What I needed was some of the anti-tank obstacles from Roco; the "Dragon's Teeth" are very useful for adding to Sherman to change the turret shape around which Milliput can be applied. I have used them on my M50 and M51 conversions. I was certain I had an unopened packet for just such a task......

Despite searching through numerous boxes I was unable to find them or any surplus bits from previous conversions......sadly a common occurrence! Parts have been put in a takeaway container for when they turn up!

POSTSCRIPT

Just after writing this post I starter tidying away. There right in front of me is a box of "useful stuff" where I also keep the plastic cement. Tidying this up, what did I find slightly tucked away but the packet of anti-tank obstacles.......oh **********! ☺

Sunday, 31 July 2022

Egyptian Sherman with FL-10 turret

 Here's the result of 2 weekends modelling. An M4/FL-10 hybrid Sherman.

While the Israeli IDF with French help, mounted the French 75mm (developed from the Panther's gun) into existing Sherman turrets, using bustle counterweights and an  extended mantlet, the Egyptians took an easier option, using the French designed upgrade mounting the AMX-13 turret on a Sherman chassis. 

At this time, De Gaulle was attempting to maintaining good relations with both Arabs and Israelis until later Arab support for Nationalist movements in French colonies resulted in Israel becoming the beneficiary of French support.

Both sides had done so recognising that the Sherman was becoming increasingly obsolete. That said, the humble Sherman continued to serve in various armies into the 1980s, although much altered. Unmodified Shermans were used in the 1965 Indo-Pakistan war, alongside various upgunned versions using the US 76mm, French 75mm (in an unmodified turret) and Soviet 76mm (as used in the PT76).

A small number of unmodified M4 Sherman were used by the Egyptians in 1967 and there are pictures of knocked out M4 in Gaza. Officially, they were attached to or part of the 20th Palestinian Division, although at least one source indicates that while paid for, were not transferred to the Palestinians. As they and the FL-10 versions clearly served and were knocked out judging by photos, perhaps they remained crewed by Egyptians with the Palestinians not having time to train on them.

Numbers vary widely. A total of 50 were modified with the FL-10 turret, but many were lost in 1956. Between 40 and 80 Sherman of both versions seem to have been available in around 4 companies, possibly in two weak battalions in Gaza, Rafah, El Arish and the Jeradi defile. Many were in poor repair, with some dug-in as static defences. The Egyptians had problems with the complex AMX autoloader system due to poor maintenance.

Here's my version with a completely scratch turret on a slightly modified Roco M4.





Sunday, 24 July 2022

Progress

 After a hectic weekend last week (visit by some friends and clearing out the hobby room / office in preparation for a new work desk) I'd hoped to be able to knuckle down and make some progress on the hobby front.

Sadly a combination of fatigue from work (and coping with 40 degree heat), cores and from last weekend, meant I did not make as much progress as hoped.

I did however recover my electric drill / Dremel style tool from the depths of the garage which allowed me to drill holes in the IDF Sherman turrets for MGs and aerials. Unfortunately, I was unable to locate the plastic ties I intended to use for aerials so had to order some more from eBay (they are the plastic locking ties used for tags on clothing they come with something that looks very much like the base of an aerial).

I was unsure about how I was going to fix the MGs, but after hunting around have found just enough Roco parts. Ideally I'd like something stronger, but couldn't find a way to do it using plastic MGs. I could perhaps use metal, so have parked things to stop me rushing into an impetuous solution while I think about it.

Here's the current fleet of IDF M50 and M51 Shermans waiting for MGs, aerials and searchlights on about 4.



Sunday, 10 April 2022

Sitrep Jordanian front

Well another month disappears without an update.

Truth be told busy working weeks have taken it out of me, so there hasn't been much to post as I have achieved very little in the past few weeks.

I did finish off three personalities for one each of Bravance, Arcadia and Argozia to even them out but these have already been packed away.

A chance discovery on eBay of a model gantry kit propelled me to tackling Jordanian armour.....

the Jordanians used a mix of M48, M47 and Centurions in 1967. The two armoured brigades (40th and 60th) used M48 (the 40th may also have had M47 but that's another story). 

the M48 was the early model with low cupola and unmodified engine deck. A rare beast in most scales, fortunately Roco's early model is just such a version, although with the separate MG turret. Due to shortcomings, an external fuel system was developed which is also seen on Jordanian versions; it was something of a liability with tanks being knocked out when the vulnerable external fuel tanks were set on fire - quite easily it seems with tracer ammunition.

Anyway, I had been contemplating how to model this for a while and had bought some oildrums but stored them away. When sratchbuilding (or scratch bodging) more than one model, it helps enormously to have prefabricated parts. Sadly I know of no such kits, let alone in 1:87 scale.

So to the chance discovery; looking at the sprue suggested various useful parts that could work for the "trailer" or frame which attached to the rear of the tank. I'd contemplated building the complicated structure out of plastic strip and card, but to be honest didn't fancy doing one, never mind four or more!

As a firm believer in striking while the enthusiasm is there, as soon as the kits arrived I started playing around and working out if it was viable.......current state of play below.



T'Other Partizan - the pictures

No more view, simply a photo dump. I'll start with what were the most interesting / stand outs for me. Minden - table was too big to tak...